DarkFlare89
Baron/Baroness of EvThreads
The Sahara Daydreamer
Posts: 296 
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Post by DarkFlare89 on Oct 16, 2012 1:50:40 GMT -6
Catherine -Located on the album(s): NOWHERE! We don't even have a studio version of this! OH WHY CRUEL WORLD? *theatrics* -NO BMI# (!!!!!) -Length Time: (  ??) -Acoustic Version Available? [NO] -Live Version Available? [NO] Lyrics: ( ??) Song: ( ??) Some Things To Think About/Debate Over -We first learned of the song "Catherine," as a result of a Ben Moody interview with MTV about his departure from Evanescence: The song "Catherine," penned in 2000 prior to their self-released debut, Origin, and omitted from the album, was the only example of a joint songwriting session that Moody could cite. Customarily, Moody and Fallen co-writer David Hodges came up with the music and recorded it onto a CD, which Lee would then take so she could write the lyrics. SOURCEWe learn from this that it was an Origin Outtake, created in 2000 (and therefore not the 1999 Vino's Unnamed Track), that was one of the few examples of a co-authorship between Ben and Amy. This article then prompted a hunt for the song, which unfortunatly came up short: Also, has anyone heard of the song 'Catherine' (by Evanescence)? on MTV.com you can find an article called 'Evanescnce: The Split' that says that the song 'Catherine' is the only song that Amy and Ben actually wrote together (yet it is nowhere to be found). There's another song that was mentioned that was on the drawing board for Origin in the MTV article called Catherine. -There seemed to be some confusion over what the shared writing of this song meant: Only Amy and Ben worked on Catherine. David, although he joined Evanescence in 2000, did not work on Catherine (at least, that is as per what the MTV article implies. He may have worked on it, but we do not have definative proof of that): Catherine
Recorded, but unreleased to the public. One of the only joint writing efforts ever put together by Amy Lee, Ben Moody, and David Hodges. Originally intended to be put on Origin and performed live a few known times in Little Rock, the song never saw the light of day. -There is only one instance where Catherine is said to be unfinished. Most discographies list Catherine as complete. EvRoom101 listed it, like Me in You (Me & You) as unfinished; note that this is another example of the song "Spanish," being called an instrumental: Outtake: Listen To The Rain, Demise, Catherine (Unfinished) Spanish (Instrumental) SOURCE-Amy answered a question about Catherine sometime around (2008?). Note that this version of the story contradicts the idea (EvLore) that Catherine, along with Spanish, were played more than once or twice in regular concerts (not at coffee shops): 3) Let’s make clear another urban legend (after the Meat Loaf one). Does really exist an Evanescence song called “Catherine�?
Ben and I wrote Catherine on an acoustic guitar in a movie theater parking lot. I can't really remember if we ever recorded it or not, but I know we played it once or twice to about 25 people in a coffee shop. SOURCE-There was a really strange EvRumor on the My Last Breath forums circa late 2004, that insisted that Bleed was originally Catherine. There are a few problems with this theory: Why copyright it as Bleed when it originally was Catherine (especially if it was finished enough to be an Outtake for Origin)? Wouldn't Amy correct the interviewer when the question about Catherine came up if it really was Bleed? Furthermore, why would Ben refer to the song as Catherine if it was called Bleed later on? If the song is about Amy's sister, why would she collaborate with Ben on it (since it is personal to her, like the song Hello and Like You)? The poster also seems to think "they" talked about Catherine ("they" did not, Ben did) and that Bleed was released (it was not, the 2001-2002 demos were leaked according to EvLore). The reason why it is often called "Untitled" is the same reason why bootlegers say "Wash It All Away," "Breath No More," or "Further Away," it's because they are morons (Bleed is NOT called I Must Be Dreaming!) Ok. Catherine was recorded for the Origin album, and it IS Bleed. You know, that's the reason why it's often called "Untitled" or "Unknown Title", because it's been called Catherine AND Bleed AND I Must Be Dreaming, and it never had a true decided title. It mostly goes by Bleed (I Must Be Dreaming), because that's the title they decided on when it was released with the 2002 Demos. I don't know if they edited the original recording before releasing it with the Demos. It was originally called Catherine because it's written about Amy's sister. I don't know if Catherine is Bonnie's middle name or something or if it's a different sister, but I know that it's about Amy's sister. Listen to the lyrics of the song, and you'll see the connection. I'm sorry if I'm not allowed to discuss things like that on the board, but you wanted to know what the song was about and who Catherine is, so I'm just telling you.
I assure you that "Catherine" IS "Bleed (I Must Be Dreaming)". It got left off the Origin album after it was recorded, and then later they just decided to include it on the 2002 Demos, only under a different name. I don't know why they decided to change the title, but I'm guessing it's because they knew they'd get asked who the song was about otherwise and maybe Amy didn't want to discuss it because it's an upsetting part of her life.
Before I knew what the song was about, I always thought it sounded like Amy had walked in on someone who had killed themself and not bothered to try to hide the fact that they did it. The song was certainly not written about a fantasy. The song is not one that they wanted to keep private like Amy's song, or they wouldn't have spoken about it to MTV and they certainly wouldn't have released it on the Demo CD.
"Catherine", however, is right there in front of you. Just with a different title. -Note that this song must have been removed from Origin before the tracks were ripped to Brad's computer (as per the inclusion of Listen to the Rain and the track that was later called Demise - see Demise). The reason why Catherine (and Spanish?) were removed from Origin is likely different than the reason why Listen to the Rain was removed (see Listen to the Rain). |
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Post by emberescence on Oct 17, 2012 17:36:38 GMT -6
I am 110% positive that Catherine is NOT I must be dreaming. Amy's sister died of an illness she wasn't murdered. The lyrics for I must be dreaming are:
"I saw her bleed, you heard me breathe and I froze inside myself and turned away. I must be dreaming. We all live. We all die. That does not begin to justify you..."
Clearly talking about witnessing a murder NOT the death of her sister.
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DarkFlare89
Baron/Baroness of EvThreads
The Sahara Daydreamer
Posts: 296
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Post by DarkFlare89 on Oct 17, 2012 20:56:25 GMT -6
I am 110% positive that Catherine is NOT I must be dreaming. Amy's sister died of an illness she wasn't murdered. The lyrics for I must be dreaming are: "I saw her bleed, you heard me breathe and I froze inside myself and turned away. I must be dreaming. We all live. We all die. That does not begin to justify you..." Clearly talking about witnessing a murder NOT the death of her sister. Although I agree with the sentiments that Bleed is pretty much 100% not Catherine, I don't per-se agree with your reasoning. Bleed may very well be about witnessing (whether real or imaginary, i.e. a nightmare) a murder, but it could also be about witnessing someone trying to kill themselves. The quote you mentioned could easily be interpreted to either of our theories (which just shows you how cool Bleed is in terms of metaphors and the like). |
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wolfie
Baron/Baroness of EvThreads
Posts: 26
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Post by wolfie on Oct 18, 2012 8:30:22 GMT -6
"I saw her bleed, you heard me breathe and I froze inside myself and turned away. I must be dreaming. We all live. We all die. That does not begin to justify you..." Clearly talking about witnessing a murder NOT the death of her sister. I do not think that these lyrics are "clearly" about murder. I've never thought Bleed was about murder, ever. I know something that might be relevant to the discussion, but as it involves Amy's sister I hesitate to share it. How much are we, as the 'general public', supposed to know? (In a nutshell, it is entirely possible for "Bleed" to be about her sister; whether or not it is "Catherine" I don't know.) |
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Post by imaginary80s on Nov 21, 2014 9:51:28 GMT -6
Hi all, I literally signed up to this forum just to tell you guys this. I know this is an old discussion thread and I'm sure this issue is hardly keeping anyone awake at night, but I can confirm that Catherine and Bleed are most certainly not the same song. I was the person who started the rumour back in 2004 on EvBoard - at the time, I genuinely believed Catherine and Bleed were the same song but I also cannot remember why. It could have been something as simple as I downloaded a mp3 copy of what I thought was Catherine because that was its file name, which actually turned out to be Bleed and as a result I concluded that they were the same song. Dumbest conclusion ever but I just want to be clear, even though it happened 10 years ago and no one cares any more - I did not start that rumour to be malicious or for fun. I genuinely believed it to be true for whatever stupid reason and I made a very assertive post foolishly stating it to be a fact - hence the ensuing rumours. I know this isn't conclusive proof of what I'm saying, but maybe this will help - at the time, there was so much debate after I made that post that one of the forum mods decided to ask Ben Moody personally about it to put an end to the matter. She then posted her question and Ben's answer on the forum publicly. I don't recall the exact wording of the question to Ben but it was to the effect of: "There's this dumbass on the forum who says that Catherine and Bleed are the same song. Is she a dumbass?" - but then I remember what Ben Moody's response was very clearly: "Catherine in no way resembles Bleed. She is, in fact, a dumbass". As a result of this, I was bashed repeatedly by other members of the forum (deservedly so looking back now). Also, there's this little piece of nothing that I found, but you might be interested nonetheless - I made this post on Shakiraholics (a Shakira forum that I frequented) on 5th May 2006 after someone said "Catherine = Bleed": "NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOO IT'S NOT!!!!! I was the one who said that and then there was a huge riot on the EvBoard because no one agreed with me, and in the end one of the mods asked Ben Moody, who responded with (and I will never forget this): "Catherine in no way resembles Bleed. She is, in fact, a dumbass". Yes, that was me. Were you there for that? I wanted to die. I was practically in love with Ben Moody at the time. P.S. Big apologies to everyone for the off topicness. " Link (mine is the very top post): www.shakiraholics.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3454&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15So there you go. At the time, Ben Moody confirmed that Catherine and Bleed are NOT the same song. And that I'm a dumbass! I'd just like to say though, that back in the day when I had a lot more free time, I was a very regular contributor to EvBoard (apologies if you guys aren't fans of that forum but like a lot of people I suspect back then that was my Ev forum of choice purely on the basis that Amy Lee posted occasionally). I maintained the first detailed discography thread back in the day and picked apart arguments over which versions of which songs came from where etc and trying to get to the bottom of every tiny little detail like whether the official version of a track was 3:03 or 3:05 and stuff like that. I wasn't just a useless, rumour-mill forum troll. I promise. |
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francis
Baron/Baroness of EvThreads
find me in the kingdom
Posts: 105
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Post by francis on Nov 27, 2014 19:25:41 GMT -6
So I did a little research and I found the lyrics. I don't know if you already knew these, but I'm gonna post them anyway. I know a secret Something still belongs to me I'm not afraid of those who killed their body For still they cannot kill their soul You may beat me down Just denying the truth But you can't kill the me in you Dreams are illusions They fade away before we can catch them Promises that may be broken, dreams we'll forget But what birthed in you cannot die You may beat me down Just denying the truth But you can't kill the me in you Hope this helped!  This is an awesome song and it totally brings out the rock in Evanescence. -Shadow  |
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Post by ladychaos on Nov 27, 2014 21:15:08 GMT -6
I don't think those are the lyrics...If I'm not mistaken those are the lyrics to the unknown song played live at the Vino's show and we've already determined that the unknown song is not Catherine as it was performed in 1999 and Catherine wasn't written until 2000.
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Post by RapturedLight on Nov 27, 2014 21:52:55 GMT -6
francis and ladychaos Yep, those are definitely the lyrics to the unknown song from Vino's.  We may never know much of anything about Catherine.
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Post by ladychaos on Nov 27, 2014 23:25:50 GMT -6
So sad but so true RapturedLight. It will probably remain an Ev mystery. |
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francis
Baron/Baroness of EvThreads
find me in the kingdom
Posts: 105
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Post by francis on Nov 28, 2014 6:55:46 GMT -6
I don't think those are the lyrics...If I'm not mistaken those are the lyrics to the unknown song played live at the Vino's show and we've already determined that the unknown song is not Catherine as it was performed in 1999 and Catherine wasn't written until 2000. Wait, so you mean that there is no video or any proof of Catherine even existing? This is creepy, even for Ev. -Shadow |
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Post by ladychaos on Nov 28, 2014 11:27:38 GMT -6
I don't think those are the lyrics...If I'm not mistaken those are the lyrics to the unknown song played live at the Vino's show and we've already determined that the unknown song is not Catherine as it was performed in 1999 and Catherine wasn't written until 2000. Wait, so you mean that there is no video or any proof of Catherine even existing? This is creepy, even for Ev. -Shadow yup, that is what we are saying...this song is a total mystery...all we have is a title. |
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Post by AeternusAmatorius on Nov 28, 2014 17:14:59 GMT -6
I don't think those are the lyrics...If I'm not mistaken those are the lyrics to the unknown song played live at the Vino's show and we've already determined that the unknown song is not Catherine as it was performed in 1999 and Catherine wasn't written until 2000. Wait, so you mean that there is no video or any proof of Catherine even existing? This is creepy, even for Ev. -Shadow No, there is proof of it. Please read DarkFlare's post. Also, the Unknown Song is called Me in You. I figured that out and it is in DarkFlare's information post in its respective thread. |
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Post by ladychaos on Nov 28, 2014 18:23:20 GMT -6
I suppose I should have clarified, that while we have proof the song exists somewhere or did at one time, there is no video or released version of it anywhere as far as we know. As AA said, read darkflare's post at the beginning of this thread and if you're interested pop on over to the unknown song's thread for more info on it. Thanks for that correction AA :-)
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??)
This is an awesome song and it totally brings out the rock in Evanescence. 
We may never know much of anything about Catherine.